CharlieManson.Net

How many on this NG feel that Charlie, Clem and possibly Brenda returned to Cielo in the wee hours (3-4 a.m.) of Aug 9th, '69, to view Tex et al. "handywork"?

Please vote yes or no and state what info is influencing your decision.
I'm just curious to know your thoughts on this much debated issue...
Thanks!

i thought it was supposed to be charlie and bruce, not clem. but in answer to your question, probably not. i dont see why they would double their risk of being caught by going back.

Terrapin wrote:i thought it was supposed to be charlie and bruce, not clem. but in answer to your question, probably not. i dont see why they would double their risk of being caught by going back.

Clem would be curious, in a naive sort of way, to go;
Charlie could cajole Clem;
I know Bruce would be too smart to go.

Getting their jollies was probably more important than calculating risks, I think ...

In all the original police reports, there is a lot of noise going on in the canyon long after the crimes were supposed to be over... A kid writing a letter heard arguing coming from the house around 3 or four in the morning, The rent a cops were calling each other all night about gun shots and screams up until 4:00am. According to testimony and Bug's theory the killings were over and the group was back at the ranch by 2:00am, so something happened up there... I don't know if it was Manson going back or not. Plus the bodies were moved... If you look at the police reports the pool of blood at the door is Sharon Tate's and Jay Sebrings blood... The pooling of the blood suggested they bled out there for at least 6 minutes... Plus if you look at the bush right next to the door it's broken and looks like someone was set there or fell there...
I grew up in Chatsworth my parents still live in Canoga Park right down the street from where Shorty Sheas car was dumped.... As a kid my brothers and cousins and I use to go smoke weed back in the old manson caves
I come from a huge family all from west valley... I have an aunt and some second cousins that were around the ranch all the time and knew Pat and some of the other girls.... Their stories of what was really going on are a lot different than anything I've seen on this site... I just started researching a book I want to write and came across this website... What I knew of the murders were just stories I heard growing up, plus I was a bartender at some pretty rough bars in Chatsworth and Reseda and I heard some crazy stories about what was going on in the valley then from some old timers.... I plan on posting some stuff but too tired right now

kristijoyk wrote:In all the original police reports, there is a lot of noise going on in the canyon long after the crimes were supposed to be over... A kid writing a letter heard arguing coming from the house around 3 or four in the morning, The rent a cops were calling each other all night about gun shots and screams up until 4:00am. According to testimony and Bug's theory the killings were over and the group was back at the ranch by 2:00am, so something happened up there... I don't know if it was Manson going back or not. Plus the bodies were moved... If you look at the police reports the pool of blood at the door is Sharon Tate's and Jay Sebrings blood... The pooling of the blood suggested they bled out there for at least 6 minutes... Plus if you look at the bush right next to the door it's broken and looks like someone was set there or fell there...
I grew up in Chatsworth my parents still live in Canoga Park right down the street from where Shorty Sheas car was dumped.... As a kid my brothers and cousins and I use to go smoke weed back in the old manson caves
I come from a huge family all from west valley... I have an aunt and some second cousins that were around the ranch all the time and knew Pat and some of the other girls.... Their stories of what was really going on are a lot different than anything I've seen on this site... I just started researching a book I want to write and came across this website... What I knew of the murders were just stories I heard growing up, plus I was a bartender at some pretty rough bars in Chatsworth and Reseda and I heard some crazy stories about what was going on in the valley then from some old timers.... I plan on posting some stuff but too tired right now

Hey kristi, glad to meet ya! Welcome!
I too spent many years in souther CA during the early 70s, surfing and playing volleyball at all the coastal beaches from La Jolla north to Oregon BUT the area I've never been to are the desert locales near Chatsworth. In the 70s, my friends & I were told by others to stay way from those areas, as they were biker havens back then, so I never went.

PLEASE FORGIVE MY IGNORANCE on the other post about Shorty - all I have to go on are other people's most recent videos of the dumsite area and recent reports show the Susana Pass road RIGHT BESIDE the dump site, albeit at a higher elevation than where the body fell and was ultimately found.

Are you referring to the railroad elevation OR the Susana Pass elevation; because I will agree with ya that the RR elevationis extremely hidden; but Shea was thrown from the Pass elevation, which, at least by today's viewing, is completely open to any cars passing by.

As for this thread's issues:
#1) - The Cielo Front Porch Bush - that bush was damaged by Voytek as Linda Kasabian testified that when he first came out the front door, he stumbled on top of the bush when she first laid eyes on him - also, type B blood was found directly under it
#2) - The Ear Witnesses - I AGREE WITH YOU that SOMETHING was going on in that canyon in the wee hours PAST the killings i.e. that 14 year-old Carlos' testimony you ref'd
#3) - The Blood on the Porch - I don't know where you get the 6 minute info for bleed-out time - if you look at the crime scene pics of the entry way, you see blood spots and NOT POOLING. I have NO explanation for these spots - my guess would be that the CIS dude got a mixed result from blood-type transfer from all the cops walking in and out of the scene. But the pics do show that there was NO POOLING on the porch...just spotting, which could have been transfered onto Voytek's clothing from the already wounded Jay, during the scuffle in the living room.
#4) - The Purple Scarf - NO ONE has been able to give me a reasonable answer as to WHY a purple scarf was found on the grass, from the direction Voytek ran, which was "drenched" (LAPD's word, not mine) in type O blood??? Why would type O blood be on the grass when type O is either Jay or Sharon; and assuming Sharon was not wearing a scarf to bed, it would be Jay's BUT WHY is it outside in Voytek's direction???

"STUFF" went on at Cielo which still is unaccounted for; and I do feel there was activity at the house AFTER the killings...by whom and why, I'm still at a loss to know!

Again kristi, best of luck with your book and I look forward to chatting with you some more!

#3) - The Blood on the Porch - I don't know where you get the 6 minute info for bleed-out time - if you look at the crime scene pics of the entry way, you see blood spots and NOT POOLING. I have NO explanation for these spots - my guess would be that the CIS dude got a mixed result from blood-type transfer from all the cops walking in and out of the scene. But the pics do show that there was NO POOLING on the porch...just spotting, which could have been transfered onto Voytek's clothing from the already wounded Jay, during the scuffle in the living room.

Hey what's up Ms. Burb.... The pooling of the blood for minutes comes from the original police report at the top of pg twenty- three of the first crime progress report it says that the blood at the front door was that of Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring ....."from the amount of blood there it appears she was left lying there for a period of minutes.. this also holds true with Sebring...."


I also looked at the police reports again looking for this quote for you... and realized there were a lot of people that were scheduled to be at the Tate house that night, that just magically decided not to show up....
Maybe some people showed up, after the murders, saw the bodies knew it was a drug deal gone bad and left before they could be blamed....
This could account for some of the arguing heard throughout the night....


It would not be unusual for a Hollywood type to come upon a murder and bolt the scene in fear that their precious reputation could be ruined...
Leaving the bodies to be discovered by a housekeeper with no reputation to be ruined....
"Let the Help deal with it, I'm oughta here" is a constant theme to cowardly, spoiled, druggy Hollywood Stars.....[/quote]

a possible theory on why sharon and jays blood was on the porch is i heard somewhere that someone (maybe charlie i cant remember) wanted them to be found hanging on the front porch (that would explain the rope). i thought that maybe tex left them laying on the porch while he tried to figure out a way to hang them both, realised he couldnt and then just took them back inside. the reason i assume it was tex is because they wouldnt still be bleeding that much hours later.
thats the best i can think of anyway.

"Hey what's up Ms. Burb.... The pooling of the blood for minutes comes from the original police report at the top of pg twenty- three of the first crime progress report it says that the blood at the front door was that of Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring ....."from the amount of blood there it appears she was left lying there for a period of minutes.. this also holds true with Sebring...."

I'm aware of this quote and all it is, is a supposition on the part of the investigators. Those blood spots were NOT assessed by a blood-splatter expert.If you look at the crime scene pics, those spots are NOT pooling areas but blood dripping - Voytek hovered at the front door before making his run across the lawn, so his hovering could have accounted for the spotting and the typing of the blood could have been erroneously typed.


"I also looked at the police reports again looking for this quote for you... and realized there were a lot of people that were scheduled to be at the Tate house that night, that just magically decided not to showup....Maybe some people showed up, after the murders, saw the bodies knew it was a drug deal gone bad and left before they could be blamed....This could account for some of the arguing heard throughout the night...."

Possible, except for the fact that they would have had to press the gate button to get beyond the gate and into the property. No other prints were gleaned from the button poles. Voytek had already been visited in the afternoon by his MDA drug dealers but they could have returned - just don't know how they would have got in unless they climbed the gate fence to do it....


"It would not be unusual for a Hollywood type to come upon a murder and bolt the scene in fear that their precious reputation could be ruined...
Leaving the bodies to be discovered by a housekeeper with no reputation to be ruined...."Let the Help deal with it, I'm oughta here" is a constant theme to cowardly, spoiled, druggy Hollywood Stars....."

I do feel SOMEONE was on that property AFTER the killings as there were just too many reports of activity; altho one has to allow for exaggeration-after-the-fact of witnesses as well. The canyon had bizarre accoustics too, so many sounds may well have been attributed to Cielo that night when they were actually from somewhere else.

The PURPLE SCARF is the REAL teaser in all this - WHY on the grass and WHY with O type blood???

....I'm aware of this quote and all it is, is a supposition on the part of the investigators. Those blood spots were NOT assessed by a blood-splatter expert.If you look at the crime scene pics, those spots are NOT pooling areas but blood dripping - Voytek hovered at the front door before making his run across the lawn, so his hovering could have accounted for the spotting and the typing of the blood could have been erroneously typed. ...


Those blood deposits do not look like spatter to me they look like pools of blood that were wiped with a dragging motion...
and if you are running for your life and fighting to get to the front door why would you stop long enough to bleed out that much...Even if he had already been stabbed he would have to stand there a good minute to a minute and a half to bleed out that much... that just doesn't make sense to me... I just don't see it...

The thing with the fence, if you are a friend and it's a friday night, and you think you know there's a party going on, when you arrived at the gate, and the lines were cut, and the gate wouldn't open, it leads to reason you would investigate...
Froykowski, was there at the house earlier that day, but Voytek called him and asked him to come to the house, when Frykowski declined because he had to work, Voytek lectured him about working too hard... So maybe Frykowski decided he was right...and headed up the canyon...

"Those blood deposits do not look like spatter to me they look like pools of blood that were wiped with a dragging motion...
and if you are running for your life and fighting to get to the front door why would you stop long enough to bleed out that much...Even if he had already been stabbed he would have to stand there a good minute to a minute and a half to bleed out that much... that just doesn't make sense to me... I just don't see it..."

It DOES make sense if you believe Linda's testimony - that Voytek held onto the post at the bush on the front porch when she first saw him, he stood long enough to cry out to ther, she answered back to him and then at some point collapsed onto the bush, breaking it; and in his attempt to stand once again, he would have dragged his legs across the porch floor in his motioning to stand.

I did NOT say it was blood SPATTER. I said a Blood Splatter Analyst did not assess the blood stains at the time. The blood stains on the porch look to me like a series of blood drops, that would have accumulated enough in the time Voytek took while leaning on the post and falling into the bush. His blood-pressure would have been racing at the time, his body temp would have risen because of the elevated BP and with all the stab wounds he had already accumulated in the living room, even a minute or two would produce a pooling effect from the constant dripping from his many wounds.

Think of yourself accidentally slicing into a finger while chopping food in your kitchen - your hands are warm, the knife slices just ONCE and notice how much you bleed from just ONE cut! You're probably wiping up your kitchen floor of bloods spots from one cut...NOW TRY MANY MULTIPLE STABS AND SLICES...it doesn't take much to make a red mess...

"The thing with the fence, if you are a friend and it's a friday night, and you think you know there's a party going on, when you arrived at the gate, and the lines were cut, and the gate wouldn't open, it leads to reason you would investigate...
Froykowski, was there at the house earlier that day, but Voytek called him and asked him to come to the house, when Frykowski declined because he had to work, Voytek lectured him about working too hard... So maybe Frykowski decided he was right...and headed up the canyon..."

There was no forensic evidence suggesting others, other than the principals at the scene, were inside the Cielo property after the murders. It's been close to 40 years, and well after the fear has gone, NO ONE has ever come forth and admitted they were there and saw the bodies. Most people will talk eventually, especially after 4 decades with no fear of prosecution (statutes of limitations on an accessory after the fact or of witness tampering).

"Frykowski" is Voytek's last name but I know who you're talking about - Witold Kaczanowski - Voytek's gallery friend who had the key to his & Gibby's Woodstock home. He has NEVER changed his story. NO ONE HAS. Many have implied they were invited to Cielo (lots of Hollywood gossip there!) but NO ONE has come forth...suggesting NO ONE did visit Cielo that night but The Family.

No...they didn't. Time factor.

As for sounds heard that night:

http://www.charliemanson.com/maps/sounds.htm

Yes the noise complaints ....the police report of the smeared blood on Sharon's body. Thats all public record. It does look like someone moved Sharon's body, just I have always had such doubt that anyone returned that night. I don't really think there was time for Manson or someone else to drive the distance, hurriedly do the deed etc. But I haven't sized this up completely.

Is it possible, that there is something we are all missing here? Did Tex, et all, move Sharon's body those wee morning hours before they left? Had second thoughts, and moved her body back? Is this something that has never come out?


kristijoyk wrote :::: "I have an aunt and some second cousins that were around the ranch all the time and knew Pat and some of the other girls.... Their stories of what was really going on are a lot different than anything I've seen on this site... I just started researching a book I want to write and came across this website... What I knew of the murders were just stories I heard growing up, plus I was a bartender at some pretty rough bars in Chatsworth and Reseda and I heard some crazy stories about what was going on in the valley then from some old timers.... "


Wow, cool stuff. Will be great to hear about this......Like with Pat. She has said that when there was someone in or around the Faimly, that were talking of leaving, or was no so supportive of Manson kind of thing, she was the one who would talk to them and convince then otherwise? You hear of this sort of thing?

Several photos show good amounts of blood:

http://www.charliemanson.com/tatehouse/index2.htm

Particulary look at the 4th row of photos. The 1st and 3rd and 5th show a lot of blood. The second is interesting because it appears there was enough that it ran off of the porch and onto the walkway.

Why is none of the blood on the porch Frykowski's since Kasabian saw him standing there wounded and watched him fall over into the bushes.

I would also expect Sharon's blood on the porch since Sadie used her blood to write PIG on the door.

I really think too much is drawn from the forensic blood samples. There is no way to tell what % of blood ANYWHERE belonged to who.


I am sure Charlie went back to Cielo because he was so aware of how much panic and mess existed at the scene. He had to of seen the slaughter scene otherwise he would not have gone along on night two and tied up Leno and Rosemary in order to lessen the unnecessary panic that occurred at Cielo. Charlie did not like how the Cielo murders went at all. Charlie rightly assumed too much evidence was left at Cielo.

I know Charlie went back with company because he always had company with him. Charlie isn't the lone wolf type.