CharlieManson.Net

do you guys and gals think that the spot where we believe shorty was buried is only the temporary grave spot and that his body was moved elsewhere to the grave where he was dug up.

ed sanders wrote that he was killed and then covered with brush in a temporary grave until he was put in a permanent spot closer to box canyon.

when i watched the news footage of i think its sgt. gleeson or something like that, where they found shortys body, he said it is about a mile from topanga cyn. where they found his body. so where we believe he was killed and then taken down the hill at that spot to be covered with brush temporarily could possibly not be the spot shorty was recovered from the police. what do you people think.

rb641 wrote:do you guys and gals think that the spot where we believe shorty was buried is only the temporary grave spot and that his body was moved elsewhere to the grave where he was dug up.

ed sanders wrote that he was killed and then covered with brush in a temporary grave until he was put in a permanent spot closer to box canyon.

when i watched the news footage of i think its sgt. gleeson or something like that, where they found shortys body, he said it is about a mile from topanga cyn. where they found his body. so where we believe he was killed and then taken down the hill at that spot to be covered with brush temporarily could possibly not be the spot shorty was recovered from the police. what do you people think.

My, rb, you ARE an inquisitive fellow, aren't ya!

My opinion - and I have no evidence to corroborate this opinion, BTW - is that Barbara Hoyt was telling the TRUTH when she said she heard Shorty's screams coming from somewhere behind where she was sleeping at Spahn's. I think that Clem, Bruce and CM lured Shorty away from his bed on the premise of a beloved ranch horse that had got loose, and the 4 of them then walked away from the main buildings to look for said horse; and when the 3 thought they were far enough away, began killing Shorty with that wrench and those knives.

BUT because Shorty was a big man, he faught and was able to scream loud and long, and loud enough for Barbara to overhear his screams...

Then, I believe, after he finally died, they loaded him into the Ranch's truck and took him to that ravine 1 & 1/4 west of Spahn's and dumped him down where he was finally uncovered by police in '77.

There are other cold cases suspected of being Family murders, which have the same MO - dumping bodies down ravines - as Shorty's.

People ridiculed Barbara after Shorty's body was found, that she had just made-up her story about his death cries, but my cop's daughter's nose tells me she did indeed hear what she heard and Shorty did die at Spahn and was dumped later.

I HATE to quote Susan Atkins on anything because that broad is a chronic liar, but she did testify that she was in charge of clean-up at Spahn's - to rid the sand of blood, etc. after Shorty was murdered.

Also, if you have seen the dump-site, it is right at a viewpoint hwy turnoff area - quite a public place (cars passing on the hwy, etc.) to commit a messy, prolonged attack on a big man - you could be spotted in the act.

Nope, IMHO, Shorty was only dumped there, not killed there.

somewhere in charliemanson.com i think in the maps section there is a overhead picture of santa susanna. mark has a spot marked where we think shorty was buried.but it seams thatwas only the temporary grave spot. even the six degrees of helter skelter dude said this is where shorty was buried. but the cop said they were a mile from topanga and a mile from topanga is easily past the mark where shorty was thought to be dug up. i thought the story was sumthin like they all got into a car and started driving. they headed toward topanga blvd then pulled over in a turnout spot about a 1/4 mile from topanga. then they killed him and then dragged him down the hill to a temporary grave. and the spot that is marked on marks map is about 1/4 mile from topanga blvd.

if they did kill him at the turnout spot i dont think it would have been that hard. maybe there was less traffic back then.

rb641 wrote:somewhere in charliemanson.com i think in the maps section there is a overhead picture of santa susanna. mark has a spot marked where we think shorty was buried.but it seams thatwas only the temporary grave spot. even the six degrees of helter skelter dude said this is where shorty was buried. but the cop said they were a mile from topanga and a mile from topanga is easily past the mark where shorty was thought to be dug up. i thought the story was sumthin like they all got into a car and started driving. they headed toward topanga blvd then pulled over in a turnout spot about a 1/4 mile from topanga. then they killed him and then dragged him down the hill to a temporary grave. and the spot that is marked on marks map is about 1/4 mile from topanga blvd.

if they did kill him at the turnout spot i dont think it would have been that hard. maybe there was less traffic back then.

rb, see the autopsy report attached for the exact location the body was found. That's all I go by, Barbara's testimony that she heard him screaming and Sadie's accounts of cleaning up the sand after the fact.What I don't have here but I do know is it was 1 & 1/4 miles West on Santa Susana Pass Rd, West on Topanga. Yeah, I've seen Mark's maps but his markings do confuse me a bit. Still, I really doubt he was killed at the Turnout, traffic or not, I doubt they would take a chance at Shorty being seen with blood, flagging down a car...doesn't fit in with The Family's MOs on other murders...

Ms. Burb
The turnout spot on Santa Susana Rd was isolated it wasn't a turn out like a little stretch on the side of the road with some gravel thrown over it... It was an old entrance to a fire road and went down and had dirt piles covering both sides of the natural cubby that it created... That's why Tex was able to convince Shorty their were tools or car parts there...
Plus if Barbara was at the eastern end of the ranch she would have been able to hear the screams coming from there because of the way the canyon echoes.....

kristijoyk wrote:Ms. Burb
The turnout spot on Santa Susana Rd was isolated it wasn't a turn out like a little stretch on the side of the road with some gravel thrown over it... It was an old entrance to a fire road and went down and had dirt piles covering both sides of the natural cubby that it created... That's why Tex was able to convince Shorty their were tools or car parts there...
Plus if Barbara was at the eastern end of the ranch she would have been able to hear the screams coming from there because of the way the canyon echoes.....

It was a lost horse, not car parts;
YouTube videos show dumpsite RIGHT BESIDE Susana Pass Road
Crime scene pics show site right beside road;
It makes sense that Shorty was killed AWAY from the main bldgs BUT NOT at the dump site, IMHO
IMO, Shorty was killed on the ranch property and Barbara heard the screams;
I just read Paul Watkins book which tells of a time when Clem told Paul of the killing - that Shorty would NOT die, that he would NOT stop screaming, "Why Steve, why?!" over and over again

The kill spot and the dump spot were separate IF you follow the MOs of The Family

In the 1981 parole transcript for Steve Grogan, where he was given a parole date, he said... "We proceeded down Santa Susana toward San Fernando Valley (which means they were headed east from the ranch). And a 1/4 mile from the ranch there was a turn off where cars, you know like a rest area. And Tex mentioned he had some parts he had to get before going to the store"......


I grew up in Chatsworth I've been back there a zillion times. I know exactly what turn out he's talking about....Now it's a fire road again... or the end of a fire road ... But almost every year in October or November there is a fire back in Box Canyon, and like clock work in January and February when it rains there are mudslides and it washes away the old fire roads so new ones have to be built.. When this happens they come in with trucks and pile all the mud from the main road onto the side... The old fire roads especially the ones that open near ravines create a natural cubby so it's an isolated little "rest area" off the road, until it is made into a fire road by the property owners again....

In the same testimony when Steve Grogan was asked where Charlie was he said he came in another car but he did not see "he must have come through some back trails in a different car". This statement just solidifies this issue for me.... If you look at Google Earth and look at Spahn Ranch you will see the entrance to the ranch.. On the other side of the road just a little to the east of the Ranch .... There is a a road that makes a horseshoe all around a community of houses when it comes down and ends you can see on the other side of Santa Susana Rd it makes a little landing... that is the turn out except during Charlies time those little entrances weren't paved like that they were gravel with huge piles of dirt on either side of the entrance.....

So you can see the landscape and the testimony of the man that led them to the body of Shorty is accurate.....

aa

Charlie said there were more involved with Shorty's murder than the ones convicted. I think at least three of the girls were involved in getting Shorty to where he needed to be to be murdered. Including Squeaky.

Mach2 wrote:Charlie said there were more involved with Shorty's murder than the ones convicted. I think at least three of the girls were involved in getting Shorty to where he needed to be to be murdered. Including Squeaky.

I'm not sure I agree with you that there were more than charlie, bruce and clem there but I DO believe Barbara Hoyt's testimony...she HEARD Shorty's screams because I believe he was killed on the Spahn property and NOT where he was found. That location was only a dumsite, IMHO, a very typical M.O. in the family - to murder in one spot and dump in another spot, i.e. the Willetts murders and the unsolved Habe and Gaul/Sharp murders.

I DO believe that some of the girls were used to cover up the blood evidence in the sand/dirt where they killed him. Sadie says as much but she puts herself in EVERY murder so its hard to tell whats real and whats not with her.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that Shorty's grave was just a dump site and nothing else.

If we can get a copy of a 1977 thomas guide, we could find the location perfectly. I found the police report when they found the body. It says "*Thomas Guide PG 6 B-1 (Between the word pass & R.R. tracks)" My parents have a old one dated 1984. Im going to check to see if Spahn is still on Pg. 6.

bobot420 wrote:If we can get a copy of a 1977 thomas guide, we could find the location perfectly. I found the police report when they found the body. It says "*Thomas Guide PG 6 B-1 (Between the word pass & R.R. tracks)" My parents have a old one dated 1984. Im going to check to see if Spahn is still on Pg. 6.

Hey bobot, that sounds great. Can you explain for the rest of us who do NOT live what the Thomas Guide is and whether or not you found the Spahn ranch on there...

I thought everyone knew what a Thomas Guide is. Thomas guide was the easiest map to use. Its a spiral book, and is made in a way that makes it very user friendly. Kinda like a Map for Dummies. But very popular before Mapquest and such. I havent been to my parents house yet, but when I do, I will look. They didnt change much between the years of 77 and 84(which is what my parents have) so im hoping I can locate the spot. I have been to the area personally. It would make sense that the body was found 1/4 mile like in the DVD Six degrees........ Its right next to the RR tracks and theres an enbankment on the side of the road. In between the Road and tracks theres a trail in between along the stream that leads to spahn. Which is the path that leads to my favorite cave, One that no one has posted pictures of. Or even mentioned for that matter. Its like 22 feet deep and very wide located right above a waterfall downstream from the ranch. I couldnt find it before because of all the brush. Since the fires, it was all clear out. How do you post pics on here?? I would love to show everyone. [/url]

Bobot, when you click on the Post Reply button, below the white block where you type, there is a blue-coloured sentence that says, "Ad image to post" click on that link, and a pop-up from Image Poster will come up and just browse your computer for the chosen pics and up/load them to your post. Each pic, I believe, has to be under 100k but other than that restriction, you can up/load what you want.

We eagerly await you and your pics!!!

Well my pics are way big, so I set up a flicker account. Heres the link. The first 6 are Devils Canyon Creek, The next 6 are are of the cave downstream from Spahn ranch (about 200 feet east) close to where Shorty body may have been found. This is by far my favorite cave, its pretty much untouched, and it can hold quite a few people in it comfortably. There is a waterfall just below it. Theres a pic where you can see the cave and waterfall together. I also have some of Fern Ann Falls Creek. Not as cool because its all dried up, but I will post them soon. Im still looking for the other Waterfall area that also has a cave above it. Its supposed to be 1 mile north of Spahns ranch right around hileah springs. If you google "hileah springs" on google maps, theres a rock with a white painted X on it. Check it out. Zoom in as close as possible, you will see it. Let me know what you guys think of that. Manson related?? I wonder. ENJOY THE PICS!!!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40430895@N05/?saved=1