CharlieManson.Net

Terrapin wrote:

everyone should find the time to have fun. people stress too much

AMEN.

And now back to the original topic. Did Manson change and why?

Was he really a pacifist in '67? He'd certainly been a pimp a few years previous. I can't think of him ever using a weapon previous to '68 or '69.

Would a criminal change his M.O. in his mid-30s? Would a new psychiatric disorder suddenly appear at that age? Or was there an event that changed him?

Mach, I'm starting to see your Two Charlies' view, just I wouldn't go as far as to call him a pacifist Charlie in '67, but seems he was no murdering Charlie at that time either. Maybe with his on-going increasing control over the Family(with the accompanying power trip associated with it) and his plans of becoming a big music star going to nothing, coupled with his own drug use and other things falling around him ie Seems most people forget he was facing a charge of having sex with an under age girl - sometime in may/june? July even? '69, plus his impending fear he had killed a Black Panther...all this made for one paranoid and dangerous Charlie?

Webmaster, you don't know of Manson using a weapon before '67?. What about the number of armed robberies he committed?. Or the conviction he has for raping a fellow inmate at knife/shiv point?

louis365 wrote:
Webmaster, you don't know of Manson using a weapon before '67?. What about the number of armed robberies he committed?. Or the conviction he has for raping a fellow inmate at knife/shiv point?

That was a long time earlier back in the 1950s when Charlie used violence and weapons. In 67 Charlie was headlong into peace and love. Between 67 and 69 he reverted back. Is the violent state Charlie's natural state of mind and his nearly two year peaceful time period just a fluke era not representitive of the real Charlie?

Was it the drugs?
Was it the power trip?
Was it the cops closing in on him?
Was it what happens when Charlie meets up with responsibility?

There are some good theories that posters have offered in this thread.

yeah sorry about getting off topic. seems everytime we go off topic its Mach and i arguing about hippies, lol.

its interesting that charlies mother believes he was mentally ill way before 67. drugs like LSD r well known to make mental illness worse and also bring out underlying mental illness. maybe that was a big part of charlie 'reverting back'. i still think the power trip aspect of it played a BIG part.

Terrapin wrote:yeah sorry about getting off topic. seems everytime we go off topic its Mach and i arguing about hippies, lol.

its interesting that charlies mother believes he was mentally ill way before 67. drugs like LSD r well known to make mental illness worse and also bring out underlying mental illness. maybe that was a big part of charlie 'reverting back'. i still think the power trip aspect of it played a BIG part.

I agree with LSD causing mental illness and have recently spoken to people online in two forums who thought that too and even one who said he experienced that. If you're already unbalanced then taking LSD is disaster.

Last night I read in Susan Atkins book I read her saying Charlie would periodically fall into Dark Moods. One of his Dark Moods was when he sent the girls away from Spahn Ranch up to Mendicino where the famous Witches of Mendicino episode occurred.

I can definately see how Charlie could be a peaceful flower child in 67 and then a killer in 69. That's Charlie allright.

the thing with LSD is that it basically brings on an episode of psychosis. so yeah unless you are fairly stable it can be a disaster.

what is the Witches of Mendicino? it sounds familiar

Terrapin wrote:the thing with LSD is that it basically brings on an episode of psychosis. so yeah unless you are fairly stable it can be a disaster.

what is the Witches of Mendicino? it sounds familiar

I was not a60s teen so I never saw the liquid LSD used at that time. I have been told it was very potent and could last more than an afternoon or evening.

The witches of mendicino was when the girls got arrested for giving drugs and pot to teenage boys and they got thrown in jail and run outta town.. Atkins claimed they were raped and the bus was shredded.

Speed..... it was during this time he came across Tex... Tex sold speed... I know this for a fact..... Acid is bad it makes you spacey and retarded.... Speed robs you of your soul.... I think the change was the speed....

I don't think, for Charlie, it was the speed that may have helped push him over the edge into a killing Charlie. Manson claimed something like 'it robbed your soul.' He was against The Family using it. This is fairly well documented and appears as being true. Paul Watkins has said Manson forbid it. Sure, at least Tex and Sadie used it, but they always had to hide it, and try and keep Manson from finding out. Acid/peyote/mescaline and of course pot/hash seemed to have been the drug mainstays of The Family.

louis365 wrote:I don't think, for Charlie, it was the speed that may have helped push him over the edge into a killing Charlie. Manson claimed something like 'it robbed your soul.' He was against The Family using it. This is fairly well documented and appears as being true. Paul Watkins has said Manson forbid it. Sure, at least Tex and Sadie used it, but they always had to hide it, and try and keep Manson from finding out. Acid/peyote/mescaline and of course pot/hash seemed to have been the drug mainstays of The Family.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Tex and Sadie have to hide the speed from others because CM was against it?

Yes Adamantly, that is my understanding exactly.

Terrapin wrote:

But now that you mention it, the last time I attended a mostly-hippie event, just three or four years ago, it was a very small bluegrass festival up in an Appalachian hollow, with lots of families, watermelon, American flags and peace flags flying side by side, and it was a really nice atmosphere and wonderful AMERICAN music. At no point during the 5-day festival did the music stop, nor a fight start, and latenight campfire stories and singing abounded... Set aside the tie-dye styles, flowers in hair, and clouds of marijuana smoke, and it was as innocent and old-fashioned a music festival as what you'd expect in good old Mayberry in 1959, but without the town drunks. It was sweetly old fashioned, probably very much like a family reunion circa 1932.

sounds great! wish i was there
btw, hippies still had work and family values they just didnt have big corporation values that only benefit the rich. and the fact that they partied and had a good time, good on them. everyone should find the time to have fun. people stress too much

Dam, you got that right!

The difference in how young folks react to the current wars as opposed to Vietnam was the draft.